Pry these sparkle dice from my hands at your own peril, villain!
Let's say your elf was stabbing a mean little orc and you had to roll d6 for damage. I hand you a d7 with two "1"s on it (i.e. 1,1,2,3,4,5,6). Would you be cool with that?
Apparently a lot of roleplayers would be totally cool with this.
Indeed, this is the magnitude of inaccuracy in cheap d6s, according to this 2006 study based on 144,000 dice rolls using replicates of dice from different manufacturers. Both Chessex and Games Workshop dice showed this level of inaccuracy - actually a bit worse than this, on average.
Trivial? Insignificant? Meaningless given the small number of rolls in a session? Ummm. Not really...
The study I cite has been discussed endlessly in the various gaming forums over the last several years, yet most roleplayers still don't seem to care in the least that their dice might be way way off. I find the psychology here to be very interesting and quite different from the other gaming subcultures I've crossed paths with.
I spent some years playing Magic: The Gathering and, later, strategy boardgames. In Magic I could not conceive of any player ever being okay with slipping a fifth replicate of a card into a deck (you're only allowed four). In boardgaming, likewise I could scarcely imagine a player showing up to a game of Settlers of Catan or Stone Age with their own funky dice for their own personal use. This would immediately create suspicion amongst the other players, whether it was at a tournament or a dining room table. So why is this okay in roleplaying games?
It's fascinating to read the viewpoints of the dice inaccuracy apologists who responded to my previous post, or this spin-off discussion at RPGSite. A lot of people are quite open about how they are more concerned about the color of their dice - the way they sparkle in the fluorescent basement light or the way they glisten when coated in Cheeto grease - than how they function. One player used the RPGSite thread as a chance to show off a picture of the heavily worn early-80s TSR dice he stills plays with. Obviously these dice have significant nostalgic value to this person, which I can totally understand. I don't think this person would ever argue that his dice roll accurately, however.
Ultimately it turns out that many roleplayers value aesthetics over function when it comes to dice. Dice are symbols, "potent totems of gamer culture" as S. John Ross puts it, that players use to communicate aspects of their identities. The person with the dirty old Dragon Dice is old school... the person with the sparkle dice is a fancy-pants... the person with the 100 cheapies is well-prepared... the person with the sack of 23 weird dice is superstitious. And so on.
Upon reflection, I actually think this is kind of cool and is part of what makes the RPG world such a fun and interesting place. I love gaming with oddball eccentrics, including people that speak in funny voices and wear felt elf hats. Of course a lot of these kinds of folks are going to have complex emotional relationships with their dice. You know what? It's fine with me... For the record, I have never discussed dice accuracy at a game session, much less asked somebody not to use their personal dice. I welcome players to bring and use their special juju dice - this is a charming and idiosyncratic roleplaying tradition that I do not wish to change. I value the cultural weirdness of dice traditions more than I am concerned about a given players' roll outcome accuracy.
On the other hand, I can think of no reasonable excuse for why a DM should not make an effort to use accurate dice. I am of the traditional view that a DM should strive to be an impartial referee, and this would include allowing players to expect fair dice rolls. I would be interested in hearing a rational argument for why a DM shouldn't invest $5-10 in a set of good dice.
I can't give you one. I think the same about the DM/GM. They should be well prepared.
ReplyDeleteOh well, I guess my idea of a dice certification service wouldn't go over well then. =)
ReplyDeleteHeh, this whole elitist rant reeks of the same carrion spewed forth by those that swear there is only 'one true game', think that the basement calender reads 1973 and use playground phrases like TETSNBN.
ReplyDeleteI have not time for such things and am dropping my subscription to this blog. When/if you fall off your elitist high-horse I'll return.
DUDE. I totally played at a LARP with that dude once. I am not making this up. I don't recognize the site in the background, but WOW.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, the only dice I ever had a problem with are the all-metal ones that are noisy as HELL when you roll them. A guy I played LFR with had them. I don't like them. That said, I wouldn't ban them from the table unless they were somehow taking away from the fun of the rest of the players.
Hell, I still have my original dice from Gamma World 1e. If they were good enough for Gary, they are good enough for me.
ReplyDeleteI think the d20 is kinda round these days tho..., and the d8 missed some of its filler when it was molded ;)
Heh, this whole elitist rant reeks of the same carrion spewed forth by those that swear there is only 'one true game'
ReplyDeleteWow! As I was saying, a lot of people have complex emotional relationships with their dice! I am mystified how a chat about a $5 set of dice can lead to this kind of off-topic vitriol.
I wonder what exactly made my post elitist. The fact that I prefer to play with people wearing elf hats?
Upon further reflection I think I may have swiped that line from S. John Ross.
ReplyDeleteI use Gamescience dice when I DM, and I'm one of the "apologists" - I feel that we are taking the game too seriously when we tell newbs that the dice they just bought suck and they aren't allowed to use them.
ReplyDeleteI ALSO have a set of cheating dice that I also use when DMing on occasion. When I feel the need to twist the results.
Upon further reflection I think I may have swiped that line from S. John Ross.
ReplyDeleteCitation corrected! Thanks!
Anyway, the only dice I ever had a problem with are the all-metal ones that are noisy as HELL when you roll them. A guy I played LFR with had them. I don't like them. That said, I wouldn't ban them from the table unless they were somehow taking away from the fun of the rest of the players.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't ban them unless they were breaking my table. :)
I've never understood people carrying their own set of dice. Maybe it's because I play with the same group of people week in, week out. All the books, sheets, dice etc are at our house, our friends just bring themselves, a bottle or two and maybe some snacks. Stuff is scattered around, you grab the nearest die you can find. Having your own precious bag of beloved dice makes me think of people travelling from one anonymous group to another, with their own little tupperware set of nibbles, their own separate tv dinner table to carefully lay out all their accoutrements *just so*. What do these people do when they need to do a lightning bolt or a magic missile several levels up? do they seriously just keep rolling that one little die of theirs?
ReplyDeleteI have to admit that until these posts I never gave it an iota of thought. At the moment, I'm just happy to have some dice, period, Chessex though they may be. Looks like I'll have to trade up.
ReplyDeleteIn boardgaming, likewise I could scarcely imagine a player showing up to a game of Settlers of Catan or Stone Age with their own funky dice for their own personal use. This would immediately create suspicion amongst the other players, whether it was at a tournament or a dining room table. So why is this okay in roleplaying games?
ReplyDeleteYou state that it's outrageous to use normal six sided dice in roleplaying games then but state that it's outrageous to not use normal six sided dice in board games. Surely, if it's simply about the statistical variation of rolls, the same adherence would make playing a board game with the dice it comes with impossible. Either you choose to replace all games that use d6's with casino quality dice or you just use what's at the table and live with it. So in the end, the reason that it's okay to bring a normal set of dice to a rpg session is the same reason that you use a normal set of dice in Settlers of Catan or any board game. It's good enough given the stakes.
I have to admit I'm taken with much of your logic, but it just doesn't rise to the same level of concern for me. Were I a professional gamer, it would perhaps be another matter.
ReplyDeleteSurely, if it's simply about the statistical variation of rolls, the same adherence would make playing a board game with the dice it comes with impossible.
ReplyDeleteLike I said in the post - if one or more players brought their own set of dice for personal use it would raise eyebrows. If everyone is using the same two wooden dice for a game of Settlers, for instance, everyone would be dealing with the same bias, so it's not as much of a big deal. Obviously it's not cost effective for boardgame manufacturers to include casino dice with their games.
I would definitely endorse using casino dice for Settlers, however, because the fundamental strategy of the game is based on a normal distribution of roll outcomes. This is why they sell an optional deck of cards allowing you to draw your dice-roll results, thereby maintaining a normal distribution of outcomes.
An extension of this in boardgaming, of course, is that the major trend is to move away from using dice at all. Just look at the top 10 strategy games on BGG - how many use dice?
Cosign this post to the fullest.
ReplyDeleteI dig what someone (maybe grognardia?) said about "the oracular power of dice". Those dice will speak to you, but a bad set tells nothing but lies.
In my forey into the local RPG scene, I'm encountering dice rolling emulators for Iphones and Droid cell phones like the one at the link.
ReplyDeletehttp://diceofdoom.com/blog/2009/01/iphone-dice-roller-dynamicdice/
It's crazy stuff.
Facinating set of articles, good read.
I appreciate and empathize with your strong stance on dice quality.
ReplyDeleteBtw this is Greg formerly of Eiglophian Press. I have a new net-nook:
http://gorgonmilk.blogspot.com/
If its ok I re-posted this on our local game club forum (www.wasatchgamersclub.com) of course with a link to your blog ... very nice writeup thank you!!
ReplyDeleteLong live idiosyncratic dice and elf hats!
ReplyDeleteThat said, I agree with your idea that perhaps we DM's should strive for impartiality and should pony up for decent dice. Great post!
I bought a bunch of better quality dice a while back... and then I stuck them in the sack with all my other dice so I'll be damned if I can figure out which is which. Ooops.
ReplyDeleteMy players would cry if I got accurate dice. My d20's only roll 1's. I have even gone so far as to toss a few d20's that rolled so bad.
ReplyDeleteJeff Rients comment doesn't make any sense, lol.
ReplyDeleteCrappy dice, crappy rules, crappy players. I don't understand why people bother with tabletop games when there are such great console and computer options out there.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, i've probably DM'd thousands of hours since 1979 with crappy dice. It's not the accuracy of the dice, it's what you do with them that matters.
'The L-rd dictates every draw of the lot' (or, in this case, the throw of the die), and 'What the L-rd has made crooked let no one make straight' both come to mind on this subject. ;)
ReplyDeleteJust roll 'em and get on with the game, --IMO.
I use all precision dice. What bugs the hell out of me is when my players bring those fancy decorated dice where you have to stop right in the middle of a tense battle to try and determine if it's a 17, 19, 4 . . . what is that. Arrrgh. Dice are a tool, they need to be read. I use easy to read color combinations for that reason, usually yellow opaque with black numbers or black opaque with white. I hate gem dice. Again, I consider them tools not fashion accessories.
ReplyDelete@ anarkeith - obviously someone could be a great DM with crappy dice and could be a bad DM with accurate dice, but sometimes it's a matter of (PC) life or death if the gorgolich on lvl 10 is surprised on a roll of 1 out of 6, if your dice almost never rolls 1's, it's just flat out wrong!
ReplyDeleteI read that article about d6's and did my own tests here- http://www.hackslash.net/?p=1027. My conclusion is that that article is complete bullshit.
ReplyDeleteChessex and Games Workshop produce bad dice? Well color me sincerely surprised.
ReplyDeleteCyclopeatron wrote: I don't think this person would ever argue that his dice roll accurately, however.
ReplyDeleteExactly, I won't.
I use those dice only for Basic D&D or S&W; if I play M20 I use more modern speckled Chessex dice (a set where the dice came as singles to me, among them a TORG d20, a Shatterzone d10, and a d12 that I received for subscribing to the French RPG magazine, Backstab). For AD&D I'd use a set of Chessex dice - if I'd ever play AD&D again, that is. So yes, ...
Obviously these dice have significant nostalgic value to this person, which I can totally understand.
... all my dice sets mean something to me, and they are tied to specific games or even campaigns. And not because they roll well - I don't even know their behaviour as I never analyzed it.
As I was saying, a lot of people have complex emotional relationships with their dice!
The dice fetish that was joked about in KotDT and Hackmaster (rubbing the dice over Gary Jackson's signature...) has its roots in reality. There are gamers who are extremely pissed when you even touch their dice.
Also: In my game store it was a very typical view to see a customer going through the display of dice and rolling every single one, eventually buying the one with the most satisfactory results.
On the other hand, I can think of no reasonable excuse for why a DM should not make an effort to use accurate dice. I am of the traditional view that a DM should strive to be an impartial referee, and this would include allowing players to expect fair dice rolls. I would be interested in hearing a rational argument for why a DM shouldn't invest $5-10 in a set of good dice.
Better stay away from my game table, because those dirty old Dragon Dice? They are my DM dice.
And I can't offer a rational argument. A DM is a player, too, and I want to feel comfortable behind my screen. Dice are not mere tools or accoutrements, they are totems of gamer culture, as are the DM screens that I hand-craft for every single campaign, or hand-made character sheets.
Great post! I wrote one of my own at The Mule Abides to talk about why I like it & riff on its ideas - which is not news to the good Cyclopeatron as he just commented there, but may be noteworthy to others.
ReplyDeleteAfter having read your posts on these Dice, and explaining it to my players/friends, we have all decided to invest in better dice.
ReplyDeleteIf nothing else, it will hopefully cut down on how often they have to re-roll characters due to low stats/rolls leading to untimely death.
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ReplyDeleteOver time, I will probably get more accurate dice. I will probably get some good d6 sets to use in any number of strategy board games. There will be no urgency in this, and it will be as time and money allows. Your points are well made but the bias is not a game stopper for me or our group.
ReplyDeleteCyclopeatron - I did not view any of your posts on this topic elitist. I am surprised by that comment.
Heh. While I am not surprised that there are plenty of gamers superstitious about their dice (most of our group is), I do find it strange that some folks would react in anger when shown the simple fact that some dice are more biased than others. And that to suggest using unbiased dice would be an affront.
ReplyDeleteThese days I tend to stick to Gamescience and casino dice, but—ironically—more for aesthetic and nostalgic reasons than concerns about bias. I dig those plastic attempts at Platonic ideals in solid colors. (And my first two sets of dice beyond my D&D Basic Set were Gamescience.)
ReplyDelete(Actually, the “casino dice” I use aren’t quite up to full casino standards, but they’re still much better than common dice. I’m also looking to get some backgammon precision dice. Some of them are simply beautiful, but they tend to be even more expensive.)