Monday, April 25, 2011

Need Your Opinion: A New Model for Celebrity DMs at Cons

I am asking for your opinion about whether it's appropriate for a con to sell individual seats for games run by celebrity DMs. For instance, would you pay $50 or $100 to be guaranteed a place in a game run by your favorite DM / designer of all time? Do you think this is ethical?

I am asking this because I am trying to figure out a financially sustainable model to bring out-of-town celebrity DMs to our Los Angeles gaming events. L.A. isn't Lake Geneva - I can't just call up Jim Ward or Rob Kuntz and invite them to come out and run games for a day or two in exchange for free dinner. We gotta fly people out and keep them fed and sheltered for several days. This costs a lot of money.

The tricky thing, of course, is that only 6-8 people can play in a typical session run by a celebrity DM, so it's not really feasible (or ethical) to charge a lot for con registration fees across the board to finance bringing in VIPs. It doesn't make sense for general con-goers to underwrite sessions they won't even get to play in.

As a solution to this problem it makes a lot of sense to simply sell individual seats in VIP games in order to make just enough money to pay for the DM to be there. There wouldn't be any judgment made about how important the VIP is or about making a profit. Prices would NOT be scaled to a DM's reputation - only to how far they have to travel. The bottom line would simply be that there are enough players willing to fund that DM's presence.

You might say "Well, the traditional model seems to work for North Texas RPG Con... They only charge $30 for registration and they bring in all kinds of out-of-town VIPs!" Well... I hate to say this, but it's not working for NTRPGCon. The organizers have said publicly that they consistently lose money on their event. Quick math: $30 x 90 registrants = $2700 coming in. Even if you count other little stuff like souvenir sales, raffles, etc. ~$3000 is NOT paying for much - it probably barely pays for the venue and one or two guests (this is all speculation on my part, I don't have the actual numbers). NTRPGCon must have an investor with a very long horizon, or who doesn't mind shelling out lots of money for a really really fun weekend. I have to admit I don't really understand the short- or long-term NTRPGCon financial model, and I don't see how they will be able to continue to offer the VIP list that they do year-after-year. I assume GaryCon can pull off what they do because they can easily draw on the unusual concentration of local (Wisconsin) VIPs.

Lots of people will pay $80-$100 to go to an Ozzy concert. I would happily pay this much to play Gamma World with Jim Ward. I don't really see any other practical way of bringing out VIP DMs for gaming events...

Do you?

Seriously... let me know...

29 comments:

  1. Nothing wrong with covering costs with your idea.

    I'd take it one step further: Auction off the seats.

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  2. I would pay good money over and above registration costs to be guaranteed a chance to game with the likes of Jim Ward, Monte Cook, Sue Cook and the like. Hell yes.

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  3. Mybee if half or more went to a good cause like toys-for-tots or make a wish foundation, yea i could see paying 50-100 bucks.

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  4. I think scott has the right of it. Auction off the seats ahead of time, via ebay.

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  5. What is wrong with charging either through the tickets and/or the actual game table? What would be wrong with auctioning off the seats? Maybe these seats can be used to offset other costs of the con.

    If I could ever get to a con I'd pay good money to game with such a DM, for 4-6 hours of gaming no problem $50, $100, even $200.

    A celeberty DM being at a convention has a value all its own if you can meet them and chat with them. If people think your tickets are too much they just won't go to your convention.

    These events are not free to set up. These should not be charity events for the gaming masses, in fact, if you can turn a profit more power to you.

    It's a free market after all and gaming convetions are a luxury item people can choose to attend, at whatever price is offered, or not. DOn't feel shy about asking for whatever the market will bear. Of course if you get greedy no one will come.

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  6. I'd take it one step further: Auction off the seats.

    Hmmm... This could be a great idea. The nice thing about it would be that any extra proceeds could then go directly to the VIP as an honorarium.

    Maybe we could take a hybrid approach where the first half of the seats are sold at a set price to early birds (takes some risk out of the equation), then the last 3-4 seats go up for auction.

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  7. @Cyclo: Are there patterns in convention attendance or player participation that can be used for the hybrid idea?

    (i.e. are there differentials in sessions held in the morning versus evening, etc. so that the VIP's 'prime time' is what's auctioned off?)

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  8. Here's another one:

    Have every celebrity DM sign a $20 bill and give it out to the MVP of their particular session.

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  9. I would feel better if the auction was combined with a promise to video the session and make it available to the public. Otherwise, the auction just ensures folks like me will never be DMed by Erol Otus.

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  10. @Cyclo: Are there patterns in convention attendance or player participation that can be used for the hybrid idea?

    Thus far most players have come out for morning and afternoon sessions.



    the auction just ensures folks like me will never be DMed by Erol Otus.

    Why is this? Because you think the price would be too high, or because you won't (or can't) bid in auctions? I'm very curious to know.

    Also... Any con-goer could observe any ongoing game, of course. Even if you couldn't afford to get in on a VIP game you could still watch. The video thing would have to be up to the DM and players - some of them might be uncomfortable playing on camera.

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  11. I would also offer some quality discussion time with the celebrity DM, either as another event or a follow-up to the high-cost game. Playing with Jim Ward would be cool - playing AND getting to pick his mind about how he runs his game would be the awesome.

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  12. If you are worried about hard feelings you could raffle off one seat to all con-goers pre-registered by a certain date. Email the winner, to see if they actually want to play or can fit it into their planned schedule.

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  13. The difficulty isn't the guys who pay to game at the table, it's the guys who pay for con registration and then feel like they are boxed out of the celebrity games being run. That's what you have to contend with - there will definitely be people who'd be willing to pay for those games, it's the dissatisfaction of those that can't pay the extra (or lose in an auction).

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  14. The difficulty isn't the guys who pay to game at the table, it's the guys who pay for con registration and then feel like they are boxed out of the celebrity games being run.

    Well, no matter what you do there's no way around this problem, is there? I've heard from several people who were disappointed about not getting in on certain NTRPGCon sessions, even though the first-come first-served sign-up method was totally fair IMO.

    Regardless of how players are selected only a handful of people are ever going to get to play in the VIP sessions. For this reason I think the traditional model of using general registration money to fund VIP expenses might be ethically questionable. The individual seat-price approach is more fair I believe. It's more financially sustainable as well.

    This discussion, however, doesn't really apply to our specific situation. We've never charged any registration fees for any of our old school RPG events here in L.A., and we are hoping for things to continue this way.

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  15. blogger ate my first post, so second attempt:
    Auction good, do it the day of, to minimize complaints.

    Also consider other revenue streams, such as podcasts, webcasts, audiance tickets, celeb players etc.

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  16. I just figured the auctions would get pretty high.

    But considering how these seats are a scarce resource anyway, and that this might be a way to get some of these folks out to the west coast, then it's cool by me.

    It would be nice if anyone might be able to chat with them about DMing like ChicagoWiz mentions or watch the session like you mention.

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  17. These are all very good points. Without getting into too many details, it becomes obvious that the NTRPG con "model" is not sustainable, nor was it meant to be in it's present form. Getting so many "celebrity" DMs to the con as been one of our hallmarks and one we hope will pay off in years to come, both in attracting publicity and attendees to the con and in engendering loyalty from some of the celebs (this year, for example, two guests who we paid to attend the first two cons are paying their own way this year because they had such a good time). Basically, it's a long term investment for the future, one we hope pays off (even if it doesn't, we sure had a ton of fun, right?)

    Also, do not overlook other revenue streams to raise capital. For NTRPG con, selling raffle tickets (for a lot of items, many donaed), selling items in the auction (again, many items donated), and selling snacks/drinks (we specifically choose a hotel based on whether they will let us sell food and drinks, many dont)are significant revenue streams and raise more money than you would think.

    Now, to come to the subject of special celebrity guests: They are NOT as expensive as you would think. Specifically, for the cost of a plane ticket, hotel room, and food, you could have ANY of the guests we have had our first three years. Nothing beyond this (we do give all the official guests a little spending money) was given to any of the living legends we have had at NTRPG con the first year. It wouldn't break the bank to get, say, a couple of the old guard out to California if you planned things right. Being where you are IS a distinct disadvantage from having a con in DFW (very close to a major airport hub) or Wisconsin (so many of those guys live there) or even the east coast.

    There is a lot I would love to talk about when you get to NTRPG Con so if you want to grab a beer and yak I can give you a few more pointers.

    To the point of charging for seats at celeb games, I think as long as EVERY celebrity game doesn't charge for seats, you are probably going to be alright. I agree with Matt that charging for the seats to every game brings a form of class warfare into the occasion and can create bad feelings. Raffling off one seat for free is a good idea. Remember that you'll never make everyone happy though...we get complaints even though we have a strict first come, first served method of filling tables which is just about as fair as you can get.

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  18. Yeah, I'd pay to play with a 'celebrity' DM - I paid the full OrcCon price to sit in on one game (an OD&D/Spelljammer hybrid), and thought it was well worth the money. If I had a guaranteed seat in a game with a good GM, the price would need to be very high indeed before I thought it was too high. It seems a bit ridiculous to me how hard it is to find a decent game in these parts. Maybe I'm just looking (and have been looking for, oh, 3 years? 4?) in the wrong places, or else I'm just way too picky.

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  19. In Hungary 80-100$ is to much for a rpg con entry fee. Usualy it costs about 3-10$. Different worlds differents prices :(

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  20. What about a half-n-half approach? Have the celeb GMs run a couple of regular sessions during the day, and then auction off seats for special evening sessions where they run their favorite or signature games.

    Amp up those evening games to include some extras (face-time, autographed items, swag, etc.--whatever you can swing that won't put you over budget).

    Another alternative is to do different registration levels and still have an auction:
    **Regular admission means you're going to a con where you know your heroes will be in attendance (chance to meet them at least!)
    **Pay extra to game at their table.
    **Cast a bid to play in a special session run by one of them and you and the rest are PCs.

    There's even more ways to slice and dice the reg levels:
    **Basic - morning-afternoon gaming
    **Intermediate - daylong gaming (morning-afternoon-evening)
    Advanced - daylong gaming with one celebrity session
    **Expert - daylong gaming with two celebrity sessions
    **Immortal - daylong gaming with just celebs, bottle of Dom Perignon, box seats, Lorraine Williams pinata, one-night stay in a custom fantasy art van!

    /you get the picture ;)

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  21. Congrats on making YDIS.

    Forget the celebs, someone on YDIS mentioned porn stars. Now if you want to turn a profit why not see if ZakS can get his group to game at your con. People'd pay just to watch.

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  22. ChicagoWiz said: I would also offer some quality discussion time with the celebrity DM, either as another event or a follow-up to the high-cost game. Playing with Jim Ward would be cool - playing AND getting to pick his mind about how he runs his game would be the awesome.

    If you're paying the way of the VIP guests, you do hopefully have some willingness for them to do more than just run an event or two, too: if you have some panels or seminars, that gives folks who weren't in the games a chance to enjoy time with the guests too. NTX even takes this one step further, and streams the seminars from the convention, so that folks not attending can virtually "sit in" on the seminars.

    You may also consider blocking out time for signing autographs (assuming that your event is large enough for that level of formality), ideally between other gaming events so that everyone has a chance to get their favorite book signed.

    Allan.

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  23. I think as long as EVERY celebrity game doesn't charge for seats, you are probably going to be alright. I agree with Matt that charging for the seats to every game brings a form of class warfare into the occasion and can create bad feelings.

    Yeah - I'm beginning to think if we were to try something like this at all we should just have one game reserved for people who chipped in for airfare, and a second game open to everyone.

    Also, after thinking on it more, I'm liking less the idea of auctioning seats. It could result in some uncomfortable or even embarrassing situations for a multitude of reasons I won't go into. Profit isn't our motive - we just want to break even and have fun gaming!

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  24. Hmm...I wonder if anyone would pay money to get killed at MY table...I'm pretty reasonably priced.
    ; )

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  25. I don't think it's unethical, but I doubt many or any designers would bring in more money than they cost, now that Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson are dead.

    Unless it was 'punish the designers you hate': pay to run Ron Edwards and Mark Rein-Hagen through a marathon session of AD&D :)

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  26. People are used to the idea of paying extra to get extra stuff. I really do think Jay's idea is the best.

    If you don't want to do that you can do a raffle. Basic registration gets you one ticket. X amount of dollars gets you another. By 4 and you get 1 ticket free. Then you choose however many PCs you want to have play based off their tickets.

    You could also give out tickets for people who buy stuff at the convention. X amount of dollars you spend on books, t-shirts, swag, etc. gets you another ticket for the game. Early registration gets you x amount of tickets. You get the idea.

    This lets the convention goer determine how much to spend while still giving everybody there many chances to get a spot at the game.

    Say you have your GM run a game with 8 players. 2 spots could be made available for people to simply buy at whatever price you set. The other 6 spots are left to the random lottery.

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  27. I have to say that, while I would enjoy the chance to game with some of these people, I wouldn't pay a dime for it. It seems a trifle... skeezy. If the money were going to some kind of charity or worthy cause, I might pay to play in a "celebrity" game, but paying for the sake of the experience is right out.

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  28. Some discussion about this at Story Games. As I say there, I favor the mix of paying customer and lucky winner that john advocates above.
    - Tavis

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